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exploding_pool
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PostSubject: Metal Evolution   Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:15 pm

Anybody been watching this? It's an 11 part series on VH1 by Sam Dunn. There's only been a couple episodes so far, and they've all been about proto-metal/early metal bands. I have to say, this guy's definition of early metal is VERY loose. In the last episode, he kept talking about Kiss and Aerosmith as early American metal...neither of those bands belong within a mile of the word "metal." Plus so far, a lot of his interviews have been with musicians who are really predictable and annoying (hello, Scott Ian, I see you still have two first names and that dead raccoon tail on your face). I'm hoping it'll get better, I kind of enjoyed "Headbanger's Journey."

http://www.vh1.com/shows/metal_evolution/series.jhtml
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:51 am

It's VH1, what did you expect?
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:55 pm

You gotta remember the terms of 'metal' may be loose with people these days, but it was just considered as such by much older folk. Bathory were considered DM with UTSOTBM, so it can be like that with other bands as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:29 pm

"Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park pushed the boundaries of metal" Need I say more?
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:32 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:29 am

Funny how all those people are talking about what is and isn't metal on a site owned by the label that brings you such metal titans as Young The Giant and Nickleback.

And what the fuck is "shock rock" anyway? Alice Cooper and Marilyn Manson?

Every time some new band puts out a song with distorted guitars, motherfuckers wanna jump up and call it metal. Like I said recently in regard to a rift in the local metal scene: "It's not about being an elitist, it's just knowing the difference between hard rock and heavy metal."

It's simple, Black Sabbath were one of the first to be called heavy metal back in 69-70. Aerosmith and Kiss came later with thinner, weaker guitar tone (especially Kiss) and a significant lack of dark subject matter. This qualifies them as "hard rock", not metal. What's so difficult for people to understand?
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:55 am

Oh, I forgot this is the same guy who classified Cradle of Filth as "Norwegian Black Metal". Snooty

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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:44 pm

I never really wanted to say that I hated "Metal: A Headbangers Journey", I just said I didn't like it. It taught me nothing and as a rule of thumb anything that mentions nu Metal is void. After reading that shit Hades posted this guy if obviously oblivious to Metal. all nu Metal pushed was the general public's retarded notions of what Metal is.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:29 pm

Hideous wrote:
It's VH1, what did you expect?
I keep hoping VH1 might redeem itself, but it never does. Laughing At least it's better than the debacle of MTV. Although Teen Mom/16 and Pregnant are a couple shows I genuinely enjoy and watch religiously...shut up.

Gangland wrote:
I never really wanted to say that I hated "Metal: A Headbangers Journey", I just said I didn't like it.
Yeah "Headbanger's Journey" isn't exactly the most informative thing about metal I've ever seen, but I didn't think it was too awful. At least it somewhat hit the mark every now and then. Other times, it was just WAY off. I guess I was being forgiving towards it because it's better than what I hear every day from people I know who like "metal." My old college roommate was obsessed with Slipknot and most forms of lame metalcore/nu-metal, so I got to "learn" all sorts of stuff from her, since she just thought she was an expert on music. And she was a brilliant musician. (She could play like half of one Green Day song at a fraction of the speed it should have been)

And wow, after reading that link from Blabbermouth, I have a few things I'd like to get off my chest. I guess I can see his point about nu-metal pushing the boundaries of metal, just because a lot of old-school guys heard it and dismissed it just because it featured rap...but that's assuming nu-metal is even metal at all, which is something I still struggle to define. I guess I might consider nu-metal a form of metal, just because it doesn't fit into my definition of hard rock...but it's a very safe and boring kind of metal that isn't nearly as dangerous and creative as it thought it was. So boundary-pushing in the sense of taking metal to some new and interesting point? Nah. And yeah, shock rock as a sub-genre of metal or whatever he's trying to say it is is just bullshit. Alice Cooper was rock, Marilyn Manson was hard rock/industrial. They sound totally different, and you can't lump bands into a genre based on how the frontmen act. Otherwise we'd have douchebag rock and egotistical rock, among many others...

And CoF as Norwegian BM? What the fuck. They're English and barely even BM at all, much less among the ranks of Darkthrone or Mayhem. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:11 pm

I don't know, I've been surrounded by slipknot ant atreyu fans all through high school when I saw the documentary and I still didn't like it. But no nu "Metal" is not Metal. There is nothing about it that is similar to Metal aside from they have guitars, drums, and bass. Its mainstream garbage, pretty much heavy pop or musical hip hop (or whatever you wanna call the mainstream version of rap).
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:01 pm

^ I hear that a lot with nu-metal and "mallcore," that's it mainstream garbage. Being mainstream or garbage doesn't make it not a form of metal, it would just make it a bad form of metal. It's got all the qualifiers of metal for me, it just does them all extremely shitty.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:47 pm

What qualities? Its shitty hip hop using a band.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:34 am

Hmm, I get both sides of this actually. Makes me think of shit like Black Veil Brides. Upside-down cross necklaces, black leather, fire in the music video, breakdowns and metalcore riffs yet they're some of the poppiest, non-heavy shit I've ever heard. Bands like this are a result of market research, just like the countless bands who wear skinny jeans, have disks in their earlobes and wear black and red flannel shirts.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:08 pm

As far as I'm concerned, Nu-"Metal" is a form of Alternative music, maybe Heavy Alternative
rock music. I can no bring myself to call that metal because if that is Metal then by definition bands like Faith No More and Living Color are both metal bands and I would never say that. I agree with Hideous in that what makes something Metal is the attitude and a certain darkness and feeling of alienation and/or evil. There is plenty of radio rock that has loud guitars and shouted vocals but that doesn't make something metal. There is also plenty of bands sporting upside down crosses and singing songs about the devil but would you call bands like Coven and GG Allin metal? There's just that something in the music that separates metal from non-metal, it's hard to explain it you just feel it. But then again this a subjective topic where no one is right so what the fuck do I know?
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:25 pm

I think we need to remember a couple things here. Love it or hate it, the inclusion of nu-metal in both the Headbangers Journey and in this new series is necessary.

This sh*t has had an impact on metal. Outsiders looking in think this is metal...to a lot of younger people, this is their first exposure to harder music. A lot of these bands consider themselves part of the metal scene.

As fans we can say "screw this crap, its not metal", but if your trying to take an unbiased look at metals history you cant pretend it didnt happen

As for that line about CoF...dudes on his own, because thats just f*cking stupid
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:37 pm

Hades wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, Nu-"Metal" is a form of Alternative music, maybe Heavy Alternative
rock music.
Thats a fair claim.

Hades wrote:
I can no bring myself to call that metal because if that is Metal then by definition bands like Faith No More and Living Color are both metal bands and I would never say that.
HEY! In Living Color are my favorite Black Metal band.

Hades wrote:
There's just that something in the music that separates metal from non-metal, it's hard to explain it you just feel it.
Agreed.

Hades wrote:
But then again this a subjective topic where no one is right so what the fuck do I know?
You deny nu "Metal, and are a fan of Metal so obviously you know something.

Surgical_Brute wrote:
This sh*t has had an impact on metal. Outsiders looking in think this is metal...to a lot of younger people, this is their first exposure to harder music. A lot of these bands consider themselves part of the metal scene.
Yes, it has had an impact on Metal, but not a positive one. The PMRC hearing had an impact on Metal, that doesn't make it Metal though. Rap had an impact on Metal (anthrax + public enemy's shitty collaboration) that doesn't make Rap Metal.

The problem with the whole "this is people's gateway" argument is ITS NOT JUST NU METAL! A lot of these fans also like true Metal such as Black Sabbath and Slayer, the DISTINCTION comes with time on whats actually good and Metal and whats shit. Therefore if you subtract the false garbage from the equation then you have a stronger Metal fan base, because you don't have those "maggots" or whatever the fuck tainting the Metal pool with their mainstream shit, and those who would get into real Metal later on wouldn't have to shift through the wigger garbage.

Just because some nu "Metal" bands consider themselves part of Metal doesn't make it true. Just like because a mental patient thinks he is Napoleon means its true. By accepting nu garbage you're merely supporting their delusion.

Surgical_Brute wrote:
As fans we can say "screw this crap, its not metal", but if your trying to take an unbiased look at metals history you cant pretend it didnt happen
No, but that doesn't mean you have to present it in a positive light, nor present it as part of Metal. It was neither positive nor was it a part of Metal.

Lets dissect this further, the last profitable form of Metal at that time was glam/hair, but that died off with the rise of grundge and alternative. If you listen to nu and compare it with a nirvana song you'll find some characteristics. Its the same simplistic chords, just moved onto a 7th string, added hip hop influences and more heavily distorted. The corporate mainstream tags on "Metal" to it in order to give it a pseudo macho appeal. No one here has named ONE characteristic that this shares with Metal musically aside from they use guitars and drums, because there are none.

Allowing this shit to be labeled as Metal is basically letting mtv tell us, the Metal fans what Metal is. Metal is not mainstream, Metal is not a fad. nu Metal was a fad, thats why you don't hear about it anymore. The mainstream has no concept of Metal, Metalheads do. So allowing to let the mainstream audience dictate to us, the real fans, the fans who will love this music 10, 20, 30, 40+ years from now, what Metal is when by next summer the mainstream will be back liking britney spears, or whatever the fuck, is senseless.

/rant
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:02 am

Nu metal to me just doesn't really fit anywhere, but it comes closest to metal. It's too heavy for pop/alternative. The only other category it could fall into is maybe hard rock, but to be honest, those two genres tend to cross over a lot these days. The only time I ever hear a hard rock band and think it sounds distinctly different from the more radio-friendly variety of metal is if it was released prior to 1990. Nu metal sort of straddles hard rock and commercial metal and if I had to pick one, I'd throw it in with metal but attach a warning to it about how much it sucks.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:10 am

Quote :
Just because some nu "Metal" bands consider themselves part of Metal doesn't make it true. Just like because a mental patient thinks he is Napoleon means its true. By accepting nu garbage you're merely supporting their delusion.

Whoa whoa whoa..who said I accept nu metal. Im pretty new here, but your making a bit of a leap without really knowing me.
I dont like it, I dont listen to it, and Ive argued this subject with mallcore dweebs more times than I can count.
The point Im trying to make is that, in a documentary covering the evolution of metal...evolution being the key word...nu metal should be examined. If you want to argue its a dead end fad...thats fine. Think its crap..hey I agree. Do I think it belongs in this documentry...yeah. Because whether I think its metal or not, its tied to the metal scene, and has had an impact on it

Quote :
The problem with the whole "this is people's gateway" argument is ITS NOT JUST NU METAL! A lot of these fans also like true Metal such as Black Sabbath and Slayer, the DISTINCTION comes with time on whats actually good and Metal and whats shit.

A lot of them dont...The truth is, unless you have a friend or relative to help, your first exposure to heavier music is probably whatever shit is trendy on the radio or facebook. Thats going to influence your taste. I found bands like Mudvayne and Slipknot long before I found Slayer or Sabbath because that was the style that interested me at the time. I didnt want shredding or doom riffs. I wanted breakdowns and turntables.
Now looking back, I can see that stuff for the shit it was, but without it I wouldnt have started searching out harder sounding music to begin with
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:42 pm

Surgical_Brute wrote:
Quote :
Just because some nu "Metal" bands consider themselves part of Metal doesn't make it true. Just like because a mental patient thinks he is Napoleon means its true. By accepting nu garbage you're merely supporting their delusion.

Whoa whoa whoa..who said I accept nu metal. Im pretty new here, but your making a bit of a leap without really knowing me.
I dont like it, I dont listen to it, and Ive argued this subject with mallcore dweebs more times than I can count.
The point Im trying to make is that, in a documentary covering the evolution of metal...evolution being the key word...nu metal should be examined. If you want to argue its a dead end fad...thats fine. Think its crap..hey I agree. Do I think it belongs in this documentry...yeah. Because whether I think its metal or not, its tied to the metal scene, and has had an impact on it
I meant "you" as in speaking generally I'm not making any accusations towards you personally. And if we're making evolution the key word here then I hardly think nu is in any way shape or form an evolution of anything. Should it be mentioned? Sure. Should it be praised as a critical point in Metal's history? Fuck no. It wasn't Metal, and it did nothing to hepl the genre. All it did was form a new form of false Metal and taint the Metal genre as a whole.

Surgical_Brute wrote:
Quote :
The problem with the whole "this is people's gateway" argument is ITS NOT JUST NU METAL! A lot of these fans also like true Metal such as Black Sabbath and Slayer, the DISTINCTION comes with time on whats actually good and Metal and whats shit.

A lot of them dont...The truth is, unless you have a friend or relative to help, your first exposure to heavier music is probably whatever shit is trendy on the radio or facebook. Thats going to influence your taste. I found bands like Mudvayne and Slipknot long before I found Slayer or Sabbath because that was the style that interested me at the time. I didnt want shredding or doom riffs. I wanted breakdowns and turntables.
Now looking back, I can see that stuff for the shit it was, but without it I wouldnt have started searching out harder sounding music to begin with
So your telling me the first time you heard Sabbath and Slayer you hated them?

I guess I'm an exception because I was aware of bands like korn and limp dickshit when I was first getting into Metal but I never liked them. My first real introduction to Metal was Iron Maiden, then Dio and Motorhead because I saw them live with Iron Maiden and liked what I heard. Shit I heard Maiden through a toney hawk video game. Like I said, real Metal is in the mainstream, not all over it but its there and its accessable. Imagine how much stronger Metal would be if the gateway bands were nothing but Slayer, old Metallica, Black Sabbath, and Iron Maiden. So as I stated this gateway argument is bull. Sure maybe it starts people off, but it starts them off on the wrong foot, and eventually you just wanna throw your old korn cds away anyway so when subtracting that garbage you 1. Start off on the right path off the bat 2. save money and space by not wasting it on slipknot.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:52 am

Quote :
I meant "you" as in speaking generally I'm not making any accusations towards you personally. And if we're making evolution the key word here then I hardly think nu is in any way shape or form an evolution of anything. Should it be mentioned? Sure. Should it be praised as a critical point in Metal's history? Fuck no. It wasn't Metal, and it did nothing to hepl the genre. All it did was form a new form of false Metal and taint the Metal genre as a whole.

If you dont think its an evolution, then call it a bastardization of metal. Nu has obviously taken some aspects of metal into its sound. Now that dosnt mean its part of the heavy metal genre anymore than heavy metal is part of the blues genre. It just means it can trace its origins, in part, to heavy metal.
I do think that it was an important point in metal history though. We know real metal had been driven pretty underground in the 90's, and it stayed there in the early 2000's. So as far as the general public was concerned, Nu Metal was the return of heavier music, and it was hugely successful for awhile. If an evolution/bastardization of heavy metal becomes an extremely popular trend in music. Youre going to want to look at that when your talking about metal's history.
As for praising it...well if hes really doing a documentary that shouldnt even be an issue. He should be focusing on the facts, and let people make their own conclusions.

Quote :
So your telling me the first time you heard Sabbath and Slayer you hated them?

Its wasnt really a matter of like or hate. It was a matter interest. Slayer, Sabbath, Maiden..They were all names Id heard before, but I wasnt going to go out of my way to look into them. They werent playing the stuff I wanted to hear, so why bother.

Quote :
Imagine how much stronger Metal would be if the gateway bands were nothing but Slayer, old Metallica, Black Sabbath, and Iron Maiden.

See, I dont think your factoring peoples personal preferences into that argument. If those were the only real gateways bands, I dont think I would have ever found metal.
Like I said above. I vaguely knew about some metal bands. Every so often Id catch "One" or "For whom the Bell Tolls" on the radio...and they were cool, but they didnt really grab me. The same with Sabbath."War Pigs" was a pretty cool song, but I didnt rush right out to purchase Paranoid.
Nu metal and then metalcore were much more appealing to me and I honestly couldnt tell you why. I just know that hearing All That Remains made me start searching for similar bands. If I handnt heard them, I wouldnt have found melodeath bands like Amon Amarth, and I wouldnt be listening to the new Blasphemophagher right now. Iron Maiden never had that effect on me
Now, Ive since gone back and learned to appreciate bands like Slayer and Priest, but they were not the reason I fell in love with metal.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:12 pm

Nu Metal is nothing but more distorted grundge. What your doing is puttin it in a mainstream perspective, but Metal isn't mainstream music. It had some success in the 80's, but regardless of that its a underground music genre.

Well obviously you didn't like Metal at that point in time, but later you would. That doesn't mean nu Metal helped, that just means you needed more time till you'd be into real Metal.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:56 pm

Gangland wrote:
Well obviously you didn't like Metal at that point in time, but later you would. That doesn't mean nu Metal helped, that just means you needed more time till you'd be into real Metal.
I don't really care for most of the bands mentioned earlier, and the only Maiden I like much at all is the Di'Anno albums. Does this mean I still don't like real metal? silent

And I think you're being harsh on gateway bands. I would venture to say that almost everyone listening to underground metal now started out hearing something vaguely metal on the radio/internet/blind CD purchase/etc. Starting out with shitty bands doesn't mean the genre as a whole is any weaker. A few people move on until they find their niche in metal, and a lot of them stay right where they are listening to radio friendly shitty semi-metal (at best). It's the same with any genre of music. I think most country bands are utter shit, but the old, rarely played stuff isn't bad, and I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that start out listening to radio country and work their way back to what little good stuff there is. It's like the sink or swim philosophy...the real fans will continue to delve deeper into it and make the genre flourish by keeping the classics alive and encouraging new bands, while the people doing it for their image or some other base appeal will just sort of stagnate at the most knuckle-dragging kind of bands. And as mentioned earlier, the classic metal bands don't always appeal to everyone...

I also caught the newest episode today about early UK metal. They kept insisting that Led Zeppelin were metal. I wanted to shake my TV. Influential to metal, maybe...but actually a metal band, no.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:06 pm

Quote :
Nu Metal is nothing but more distorted grundge. What your doing is puttin it in a mainstream perspective, but Metal isn't mainstream music. It had some success in the 80's, but regardless of that its a underground music genre.

Possibly, but I think thats kind of the point. Metal dosnt exist in some kind of vaccum. It evolved from various genres and trends, and, more importantly to my point, various genres and trends evolved from it. So if the whole idea of the documentary is to follow the path of heavy metal from its creation through its various branches and spinoffs. Then, not only will a very popular trend that grew out of heavy metal be covered. Its makes sense for it to be covered in the context of the show. Thats why I have no issues with it being included in this documentary

Quote :
Well obviously you didn't like Metal at that point in time, but later you would. That doesn't mean nu Metal helped, that just means you needed more time till you'd be into real Metal.

I went from nu -> metalcore -> melo -> death and black -> backwards to thrash and traditional (which is still not my favorite kinds of metal).
Personally, Id argue that because of Nu metal, I was able to adjust to the harsher vocal styles in death and black far quicker than if Id come in through thrash and traditional. In fact I found it was actually harder to go backwards because I didnt like the cleaner vocal styles in older metal.
Im just speaking from my own experience though, so its entirely possible that I just wasnt ready for what I was hearing at the time.

Quote :
They kept insisting that Led Zeppelin were metal.

Ive never understood that argument. They obviously influenced metal, but as a band I think they were far too diverse in their sound to fall into the metal catagory. Some die hards take this so personally though, as if Zep not being a metal band would somehow make them any less awesome
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:32 am

How many heavy songs did Zeppelin actually make? A dozen or so at best? It all comes back to people not caring about the nuances that make something a heavy metal song as opposed to hard rock. Most people just want something as background noise, the rest of us are referred to as "music snobs" or "elitists", but in reality we're some of the only actual fans of music left in the world.
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PostSubject: Re: Metal Evolution   Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:33 pm

I just caught the newest episode about glam metal. I wanted to just curl into a ball and cry myself to sleep. It basically ended by talking about how all these washed up old guys are desperately trying to stay relevant by making jokes out of themselves doing nostalgic tours/reality TV...and somehow praising this? At least 90% of glam metal was and still is awful, and it even being classified as a metal genre in the first place is debatable, but saying these guys deserve respect for pretty much just trying to keep their heads above the water however they can is bullshit. Fuck glam metal then and fuck it now. I'm glad these guys failed so miserably in their lives and that every bit of success has evaded them, this is karma for dressing up idiotic pop as "edgy."

The only glam metal that even remotely gets the ex_pool seal of approval is Skid Row, Twisted Sister, and Dokken. All of them were a mixture of talented and not taking themselves so seriously, yet also not making complete asses of themselves. It's a fine line to walk.
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